TRANSCRIPT: ABC RADIO NATIONAL INTERVIEW, 27 August 2020
E&OE
Subjects: Foreign agreement audit, Border closures;
FRAN KELLY
The Morrison Government is seeking extraordinary powers to veto international agreements which could be contrary to the national interest. It will legislate next week – it will try to anyway – to stop State and Local Governments and universities from entering into deals seen as opening the door to potential foreign interference.
This dramatic intervention could force Victoria to cancel its contentious belt and road agreement with the Chinese Government. Deputy Prime Minister, Michael McCormack, joins us now. Michael McCormack, welcome back to Breakfast.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Thank you, Fran.
FRAN KELLY
Minister, the foreign relations bill would allow the Federal Government to torpedo any deal it regards as against the national interest. What’s driving this policy and why now?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
The desire for consistency, Fran. And we need to speak as one voice at any political level, at any governmental level. And that’s what it’s all about – making sure that whether it’s local, state, or indeed the Commonwealth, that as a nation we speak with one voice. And this is about consistency with our foreign relations.
FRAN KELLY
We need to speak with one voice but, of course, we don’t have one economy. I mean, if these laws are passed any new or existing agreement with a foreign government or institution would be up for review. The list of deals is broad: economic, tourism, trade, economy, health, science. What’s the measure for cancelling a contract?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, of course, that’s all yet to be determined. But the fact is –
FRAN KELLY
Is that in the legislation though? Will we know that?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, yes it is. But what we want to make sure is that whether we’re doing trade deals, whatever relations we’re having with countries, we want to make sure that it is in our national interest, it is in the Commonwealth’s national interest. And I think your listeners would see that and say, well, it’s about time that we did that.
And consistency is so important and we need to make sure of course, that we have trade relations. Our trade relations with other countries are fabulous. And I know that Simon Birmingham is working ever so hard to forge even more trade relations with more countries. And we need to do that through COVID because of some restrictions to our trade, to our farmers.
FRAN KELLY
The most obvious example of a deal causing concern is the belt and road memorandum of understanding that Victoria has signed with China. Would the Federal Government use these new powers to override Victoria? Is that the plan?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, we’ll look at that. And you know there’s been discussions between the Prime Minister and Victoria. And I know that Premier Andrews has got his battles on his hand with COVID at the moment. But we want to make sure that we have consistency. We want to make sure that if there are arrangements being put into place, that they are done in our national interest.
FRAN KELLY
Okay but it’s the definition of “national interest” that then comes into play. I mean, in this case for instance, there’s jobs and investment that the Victorian State Government says the belt and road initiative will bring to Victoria. You’re the Infrastructure Minister, would you welcome Chinese investment in roads, in other projects under belt and road, more than ever now?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Provided it’s in the national interest and provided that, you know, that everybody’s on the same page. Provided that the Commonwealth has agreed with those foreign investments and of course, any foreign investment has to go through the Foreign Investment Review Board and has to get the tick off by the Treasurer.
FRAN KELLY
Sure, that already has to happen.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Indeed it does.
FRAN KELLY
So this will be another bar to that?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
And there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with Australia saying it needs to be consistent, it needs to have one voice when it comes to all of these sorts of things. And that’s what this legislation will enable.
FRAN KELLY
It’s taking power away from the States. States presumably won’t be happy with this.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, let’s see what happens in the future. But it’s important that the Commonwealth speaks with one voice. It’s important that whether it’s local, state or federal, that it has the consistency and that’s what these new measures are all about.
FRAN KELLY
One of the most criticised deals in recent times was the hundred-year lease of the port of Darwin, a key strategic asset. Landbridge, which has links to the Communist Party of China, controls that port now for the next 97 years. Would these laws have blocked that deal with a company and could it still be revoked under this legislation?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, the Department of Defence were comfortable with those leasing arrangements. And if the Department of Defence were comfortable with those leasing arrangements then that should give the Australian people a level of comfort.
FRAN KELLY
So who would be making these decisions? Is it the Foreign Minister? Is it the Department of Defence? Is it the Treasurer? Who would be making these decisions?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, it’s the Cabinet. Of course, the Foreign Affairs Minister has a big say in Cabinet and it would be the Cabinet that are making these decisions ultimately. You know, we want to make sure that – of course the Foreign Minister is responsible for these things, but we want to make sure that there’s a consistency, a consistency that these laws are going to address and put into place that perhaps hasn’t been there in the past.
FRAN KELLY
Then the university sector is included in this. China is about to surpass the US as the leading research partner for Australian academics. ASIO has been warning of espionage and the theft of intellectual property. Would this policy be used to outlaw some of the research partnerships and programs in place in our universities?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well again, it will look at all those things. But we do welcome Chinese students and we do welcome students from all countries. They –
FRAN KELLY
Do we welcome Chinese research partnerships and collaboration?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, provided they are doing things within the national interest. Providing they are doing things within the framework of the legislation. Provided they are doing things that are going to help and support Australia. We look at all these things. The Foreign Minister of course, will look at all these on a case-by-case basis, these things –
FRAN KELLY
But we already have a mechanism to look at these things, don’t we? I mean, unis already have to put those –
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Indeed and we’re strengthening it. We’re providing more consistency. And I think the Australian people will welcome that.
FRAN KELLY
Is this aimed at China?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
It’s consistency for all countries. It’s not targeted at any one country. It’s providing consistency across the board.
FRAN KELLY
China’s Deputy Head of Mission in Canberra, Wang Xining, said the Chinese Government was insulted by – the Chinese people, rather – were insulted by our Government’s call for an international investigation into the COVID pandemic without first consulting Beijing and letting them know we were going to make this call. He compared it to the way Julius Caesar was betrayed by Brutus. If the Government had its time over, would you have handled that call for an investigation any differently?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, we don’t want any sort of inflammatory language. What we’re doing is making sure that as a responsible international player on the international scene, that we made sure that that came before the World Health Assembly. That was an important thing and look, it was agreed to by nations right across the world.
Of course, COVID-19 has had such restrictions and provided such heartache right across the world. And of course, it’s important to see why and how it started and all of those sorts of things. What we want to also make sure is that we continue what has been a good relationship with China – 149 billion reasons why our trade is important to our farmers, to our resource industry. We want to make sure that those relations continue. The relationship between Canberra and Beijing is a good one. It’s a strong one and it’s going to be continuing in the future.
FRAN KELLY
Minister, whatever way you look at it, this crack down on foreign contracts by the Federal Government in this proposed legislation would be essentially pulling ranks with the States and Territories. Is the timing of this, is it fuelled by your frustration over the States and Territories over the border closures, the refusal by the Premiers to reopen their borders and their economies?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
It’s fuelled by a desire and a need to have consistency.
FRAN KELLY
In terms of consistency, given the second COVID wave is largely confined to Victoria, what’s your view about border closures? Is it your view that all borders be open, apart from Victoria obviously, without further delay?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, I think that’s important and we’ve always taken the best advice from the health and medical experts. And they say that border closures are not necessary. Australia wasn’t designed to have border closures. COVID-19 is not going to look at lines on a map. We need ease of movement for our farmers, for our transport industry. Thankfully we’ve got a national protocol for that, so to have that ease of access and availability for people to get across, for trucks to ensure their goods and supplies get right across the nation.
But these border restrictions are really hurting particularly regional economies and regional communities, regional communities which in many cases, haven’t seen a COVID-19 case and they’ve been unfairly hurt by what’s happened in Melbourne. What we do need is strong –
FRAN KELLY
Do you want them lifted now? Why wait for National Cabinet, which is a week away?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, I think it should be very, very soon because it’s also of course, affecting our aviation industry – hit first, hit hardest. As I’ve said in the Parliament this week over and again, this has been a real impact on our aviation sector. We’ve seen thousands of job losses and until we get planes back in the sky we’re not going to have that resumption for those airlines. Planes in the sky means jobs on the ground and we want to see as many people back working, planes flying and people moving around the country. Of course, the health outcomes are first and foremost and that’s what all governments are working towards achieving.
FRAN KELLY
Michael McCormack is the Deputy Prime Minister. While we’re talking borders, Minister, with the international borders still closed, there are stranded Australian citizens in real distress. Many, many thousands of them –
MICHAEL McCORMACK
They are, and they’re very personal and distressing cases.
FRAN KELLY
And we heard earlier from a couple of families actually, but apparently there’s at least 30 families who have newborn babies who were born by surrogacy and they’ve had their flights home cancelled because of the Government’s decision to introduce a cap on overseas arrivals. So they’re stuck in Ukraine in this case with their babies. They can’t get home. In one case the family has a baby born prematurely. They’re concerned about her health. Will the Government do something to help these people?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Yes we are and we’re looking at every one of these cases. And certainly the most distressful we’re looking at very much on a humanitarian basis. Of course we are. But we’ve had 93, 698 –
FRAN KELLY
But they don’t know that you are. I mean, they told us they can’t –
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, people are registering their interest with the embassies overseas, with DFAT and we’ll continue to work through that. We’ve had 93,698 Australians return home when the Prime Minister said in March we want as many Australians as possible to return home. Of course, some of these cases are extraordinary.
FRAN KELLY
So how are you going to speed this up? Are you going to intervene in these cases with the surrogate babies?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, we’re working through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and we’ll continue to make sure that we look at these cases on a case-by-case basis. And it’s difficult because of course, there’s only about 4,000 Australians returning home each week because of the caps. And I understand that when you’ve obviously closed Melbourne to any international travellers that makes it very, very difficult because there are only limited numbers of people who can come home because of the quarantine restrictions. And quarantine restrictions mean that people’s lives are going to be saved here in Australia. So we’ll continue to address these issues.
FRAN KELLY
Michael McCormack, thank you for joining us again on Breakfast.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Thanks Fran, any time at all.