TRANSCRIPT: RADIO INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD PERNO, 2DU, 28 MAY 2021

E&OE

Subjects: Mouse plague; border closures; vaccine rollout; Royal Flying Doctor Service.

RICHARD PERNO

Parliament House, question time.

THE PRIME MINISTER IN QUESTION TIME 26 MAY 2021

I’m not going to attack the States, Mr Speaker. I’m not going to –

RICHARD PERNO

Hello.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Hello, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

I noticed you were sitting behind while this was going. You weren’t happy at all, were you? You were sitting there because you knew the media was going to pick up on this. You’ve been in advertising and fired from the Wagga Daily Advertiser. How was breakfast?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Fine, thanks for reminding me.

RICHARD PERNO

Good morning, good morning.

MARK COULTON

G’day, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

Hello, Mr Coulton.

MARK COULTON

Richard.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

I nearly got chucked out yesterday. I should have.

TONY SMITH IN QUESTION TIME

I’m issuing a general warning. If members want to continue interjecting I’ll eject them. There’s no point in me repeating myself over and over again. I’m going to be unusually succinct. If anyone doesn’t understand what I’m saying feel free to approach the chair.

RICHARD PERNO

And so it continued in Parliament House on Wednesday. But I do notice the Deputy Prime Minister, Michael McCormack, he was sitting there going, “Yeah, I know what’s going to happen here. The media are going to pick up on this and run with it,” and we did.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

And you are right now, Richard. Good morning.

RICHARD PERNO

Good morning, DPM, and Mark Coulton.

MARK COULTON

Good morning, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

Good morning. Have you had breakfast?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

With the Chamber of Commerce. It was great. A lot of interest in the Budget, a lot of interest in what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. And those small business operators right throughout the region, right throughout the nation, particularly in regional Australia, they’ve been magnificent. They’ve kept their doors open. Yeah, they’ve had JobKeeper. Yes, they’ve had the assistance, but they take the risks. They produce things, whether it’s goods, whether it’s services. And, you know, these have been very challenging times and I take my hat off to them.

RICHARD PERNO

And they’ll keep going, Michael, too, as you know. You’ve been in business. You’ve been in the Riverina –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

As has Mark. We’ve both operated of small businesses. And I think that’s one of the beauties of The Nationals – that we all come with different life experiences. But, you know, there’s no greater risk takers than farmers and small business operators.

RICHARD PERNO

Mice – that’s a scary word.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

The only good mouse is a dead mouse, apart from perhaps Mickey Mouse or Minnie Mouse.

RICHARD PERNO

I can tell you, I’ve got to give you 10 out of 10. Because the other day I read this very, very astute, properly dressed, shiny-shoed Deputy Prime Minister of ours said to these people for the ethical treatment of particular parts of the anatomy that they wouldn’t know if their backsides were on fire. And I gave you two thumbs up.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, they wouldn’t. And, you know, when you’ve got farms and homes being overrun by these bloody rodents –

RICHARD PERNO

They don’t exist, Michael.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well then you’ve got the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals saying they should rehome them. I actually agree with them. There you go – Richard, I actually agree with them. No, they should rehome the mice, of course they should. But right into the backyards and the living rooms and the pantries of these people who say these stupid things. And let them see how they react when they’re eating through their air-conditioning and computer cables, when they’re gnawing their food at night, when they’re biting their children’s head, when they’re eating their food, when they’re running amok in their house. Let them see how they’d react then.

RICHARD PERNO

And let them talk to that lady who lost her house in the Narromine Shire the other day, the whole thing gone because mice bit into the wiring and down it went, Mark Coulton.

MARK COULTON

That was up at Gwabegar.

RICHARD PERNO

Yes, it was.

MARK COULTON

And, you know, people are losing tractors, cars. You know, I got home two weekends ago. My tractor had a big rat’s nest sitting on the exhaust. Lucky I saw it because it would have, you know, burnt up. Robyn got home last night, had been away all week and she had dead mice in traps in the house. You know, they are relentless.

RICHARD PERNO

The State Government, what could it do? I mean, I’ve talked many times to James Jackson, who’s the Federal – the member for – I should say the President of the New South Wales Farmers Association.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

New South Wales Farmers, yes.

RICHARD PERNO

He said, “Yeah, that perimeter stuff’s okay. What we want is that stronger stuff and we want rebates on it”.

MARK COULTON

The State Government have put in rebates, but, Richard, I think anyone that’s been in this before – I’ve been through a pretty big one in the 80s – they wear their course. And there’s just – the Government can’t come in to stop a mouse plague. And this bait is deadly. We lost our cat. We only had one pet – we’ve lost him because he was eating poisoned mice. People have lost their fouls, their dogs, domestic pets. And so –

RICHARD PERNO

So are you saying we’ve got to wear our way through this?

MARK COULTON

You’ve got to try and protect your property. But they are everywhere. You know, like, you drive around here at night time and they’re in the middle of nowhere. It’s not – you can’t just come in with the air force and bait mice willy-nilly because the devastation for unintended consequences would be huge. But, you know, history tells us that they do come to an end and everyone out here wishes that it will be any time soon.

RICHARD PERNO

What I’d like to see come to an end, Deputy Prime Minister, is this stoush between States and Federals over the distribution of COVID-19 vaccine. I’ve had it up to my proverbials, haven’t you? I mean, this rollout of this vaccine, this vaccine, we’ve had so many, if you like, adverse and diverse and conflicting yeses and noes about it. Where do the Feds stand in this?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, let’s rise above the blame game. My message to listeners today is just to get out and get that vaccine. Get that first jab. Get that second jab. Make sure for yourself, for your family, for your community and for those people who you don’t even know, that you get vaccinated and you do it as soon as possible.

RICHARD PERNO

What sort of jurisdiction do you have over States? Can you say as an umbrella Government – you can, can’t you? – and say, “We want all of these states to stop playing the political game and –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, we work with States. We’re not going to –

RICHARD PERNO

But you can’t because they’ve just shut off Western Australia. If you live in –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, the Prime Minister can’t say to Western Australia or any other State that they need to keep their borders open. We can urge and encourage and implore and, of course, since JobKeeper that measure has come off, the States have been far more open, even with some of the outbreaks that have occurred. I appreciate that Victoria’s just gone into its fourth lockdown. I’ve got a daughter in Melbourne, Georgina, and she’s now teaching from home, and that’s very difficult. But for all Victorians it’s so tough. But, you know, they’ve got jurisdictional control over their State borders.

RICHARD PERNO

I live in the Mallee. I can’t go and see my cousin in Kalgoorlie?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

That’s correct.

RICHARD PERNO

That’s ridiculous.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

At the moment.

RICHARD PERNO

That is ridiculous.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

And, look, Anne Webster, who is the Member for Mallee, she tells stories of farmers having to go and feed their stock with face masks on and they’re not allowed to utilise services, health services, in Adelaide or South Australia where they’re actually closer geographically.

RICHARD PERNO

Yeah, well, I proposed, Mark Coulton, that we dig a moat around New South Wales and we float it out to the Tasman.

MARK COULTON

Well, the interesting thing is, you know, I’ve got a 900-kilometre border with Queensland and four or 500 with South Australia, and those border communities have not done well with lockdown. You know, I think New South Wales has done very well. You know, they’ve treated this where it needed to be treated –

RICHARD PERNO

Sensibly.

MARK COULTON

Sensibly. But Michael’s right – you know, we don’t have a tiered system where the Commonwealth rules down. The States actually form the Commonwealth and they have constitutional power to do what they want, as frustrating as it is at times. But, you know, the broader message is this will not be as big a problem when everyone’s had their vaccine. And we were, you know, that’s the announcement we’re making today with the Flying Doctor.

RICHARD PERNO

Yeah, I’m going to get to that in a second, too, Mark Coulton. Michael McCormack, are there enough vaccines? Can you vaccinate 26 million of us? Why are we at only 3 per cent and America’s got half of their population done?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, I’d sooner live in Australia than America. And Adam Bandt might have raised this yesterday, and I said to him, “Well, go and live in America if that’s what you want”. I nearly got thrown out of Parliament – probably should have. But, you know, when you get, you know, this little twerp from Melbourne –

RICHARD PERNO

No, no, I’m saying why haven’t we got all of this country already 18 months –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, it’s a staged rollout. Of course, Australia is a very, very large country. And, you know, Brendan Murphy, Professor Brendan Murphy, the former Chief Medical Officer, now the Health Secretary, has said that this is the largest peacetime exercise logistically in Australia’s history. It is. And so that’s why Mark Coulton as the Regional Health Minister made sure that DHL as the transport provider, it’s actually getting the vaccinations out to regional communities 99 per cent on time every time, 17.5 million kilometres they’ve already travelled with their trucks with the vaccinations. We’re getting there. It’s a big, big exercise, and we thank those pharmacists, we thank those GPs, we thank the State health authorities for doing their bit, for playing their part. And we ask and urge and encourage Australians to get vaccinated.

RICHARD PERNO

Is there enough vaccine, Michael?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Yes.

RICHARD PERNO

There’s enough?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Yes, absolutely. Enough to vaccinate all Australians – all Australians and, indeed, the Pacific Islands. Because we need the Pacific Islands to be COVID-free as well. We need everywhere to be COVID-free, but that’s our responsibility. We’re taking care of our backyard, as good neighbours do.

RICHARD PERNO

Should we do AstraZeneca?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, it doesn’t matter. If the health authorities say AstraZeneca, Pfizer, if the TGA approves it, then it will be right.

RICHARD PERNO

Well, we’re still an experiment, though, aren’t we?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

The TGA has said – the Therapeutic Goods Administration, world’s leading experts in this field – they said that AstraZeneca and Pfizer are right. And if they say they’re right, then I think Australians need to be safe assured that they are right.

RICHARD PERNO

Mark, have you had one yet?

MARK COULTON

Next Saturday.

RICHARD PERNO

What are you to have – AstraZeneca?

MARK COULTON

AstraZeneca. Robyn and I are having it together at 4 o’clock on a Saturday afternoon. The GP we’re going to are running extra clinics.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

He’s going to roll up his arm and you’re going to see that “I love Robyn” tattoo on this arm. I haven’t seen it – I’m waiting for it.

MARK COULTON

I’ve got to say, I’ll put in a plug for my dear wife – it will be on the eve of our 40th wedding anniversary. So how romantic is that – having a needle together on our anniversary. Can’t get much better than that, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

Family that gets jabbed together, stays together. Michael, are you going to have one?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Absolutely.

RICHARD PERNO

When?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

I’m booked in week after next to get one. I haven’t had time to actually get one. And we’ve only been – I’ve only been eligible to get one for the last couple of weeks. And I didn’t queue up at the start when a lot of the political leaders were doing so because I thought, you know, I will wait my turn, as, you know, as I think is right and proper. And I’ll certainly get one in the next couple of weeks.

RICHARD PERNO

Talking to the relatives of those 74 retirement homes where our elderly either haven’t had a shot yet.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

And I appreciate that, but also what we were acting on was the medical advice whereby initially they were saying that if you’ve had a flu vaccination, then there needs to be a certain period of time before you double up.

RICHARD PERNO

A couple of weeks.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Yep. Well, now – yesterday, in fact – they said, well, they can now have that the day after or very, very close to that flu vaccination. And so those centres which haven’t as yet received the vaccination – and some of them are state-run, mind you – they will be getting it in the next day, in the next week, and that process is underway as we speak.

RICHARD PERNO

Why are we putting those who have COVID-19, if you like, in doubt or putting in isolation, why are we putting them in hotels?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, where else would you put them? We can’t fit them all in Howard Springs. We – certainly that was the process by which we originally worked with the States through the National Cabinet process and that was deemed the best way to do it – the only way to do it, in fact.

RICHARD PERNO

But it’s proven that it isn’t.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, and you compare Australia to any other country in the world, we’ve done very, very well. Yes, I know that, you know, the media are throwing up their hands because, you know, you get a minor outbreak here, a little outbreak there and, as we’ve got at the moment in Victoria, a very worrying outbreak. But you compare Australia to anywhere else in the world – we’ve had 910 deaths. I mean, in New York they were burying them in mass graves. I mean, they were counting cases in the tens of thousands in Europe and elsewhere when we were having single-digit if – and we’ve had, I think, 73 COVID-free days this year. You know, no community transmission.

RICHARD PERNO

With only one in ICU in Victoria at the moment.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

And so that’s incredibly good. Remarkably good, which shows what a good health system we do have.

RICHARD PERNO

Michael, with due respect as Deputy Prime Minister, I’ve heard and you’ve read the reports that our chief medical officers when I talk to them, and they’re just the same qualified as you, talk to on this show, on 2DU, they’ve said outdoors, open the windows, don’t keep this stuff indoors because as soon as you open it flees.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

I don’t disagree.

RICHARD PERNO

So why are we keeping them indoors?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Because we have to keep them in confinement. We have to keep them safe and secure. We can’t let them just go out into the community. And home quarantining has shown that it doesn’t necessarily always work as well as what the hotel system has worked. And, again, we’ve taken the best possible medical advice by the TGA, by the Australian Health Protection Principle Committee, by Professor Kelly, by Professor Murphy, and it’s done us very well thus far.

RICHARD PERNO

Okay. So the next step – stay like this?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Get jabbed.

RICHARD PERNO

Every time there’s a –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Follow Mark and Robyn Coulton and get jabbed.

RICHARD PERNO

I don’t want to use the same needle.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

You won’t, trust me.

RICHARD PERNO

Are we going to be like this forever? You know, every time somebody sneezes we’re going to lock down a State?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

No, we’re certainly not. But we will have to learn to live with this. We certainly know –

RICHARD PERNO

Like we do with the flu, like we do with –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, look at how we had to transform our lives when 9/11 occurred and we had to transform airport security and the way we approached these things. And, of course, the hand sanitiser, I see you’ve got two bottles of it on your desk here. That’s fantastic. I’ll use it right now. But, you know, this is going to – I thought my aunty – I used to go to her place and she used to smother us with this stuff – she sort of invented hand sanitiser. I thought she was just a germ freak, but, you know, it’s become the new norm. And that’s probably not such a bad thing.

RICHARD PERNO

But you didn’t answer my question. Are we going to – every time somebody sneezes are we going to shut down a State, Michael?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, that is up to – that is up to the Premiers. Again, we would hope not and if you’ve got a Premier like Gladys Berejiklian, she has been the exemplar for what we should do it and how we should do it. Her and John Barilaro lead a very, very good Government that has been the gold standard as far as approach to COVID-19.

RICHARD PERNO

All right. I know you’re on a tight schedule. I appreciate it and I can hear your tummy rumbling from the breakfast so I’d better let you get to the Royal Flying Doctor Service. Why are you going there Mark?

MARK COULTON

Yeah, so, we’re announcing today that the Royal Flying Doctor are transitioning – they’ve been helping us with retrieval – they’re going to now help with the vaccine rollout. So they’ll be doing the more, you know, the more remote communities. So in our part of the world they’ll be doing Tibooburra and White Cliffs, Wanaaring, those sort of towns. And so they’ve developed some equipment so they can get the vaccine out there. And they’ll do entire communities, you know, on the days that they’re there. And, you know, we’ve been trusting the Royal Flying Doctor Service for a long time and, you know, it’s a great partnership. You know, they’ve already done a couple actually and people came from – drove and flew large distances out on the Nullarbor to make sure that they could get their shot, even though they’re a long way from anywhere.

RICHARD PERNO

DPM, it’s a great move, isn’t it?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

It’s fantastic. I mean, the Royal Flying Doctor Service, there’s no more respected and loved organisation in rural and regional and remote Australia.

RICHARD PERNO

Yes, and they’ve even got –

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Apart from this radio station, perhaps, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

Say that again.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Apart from 2DU.

RICHARD PERNO

That’s got to be milked for all. You’re going to Concrete World. Now you, Michael McCormack, as a country boy, you know what concrete is, don’t you?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, Mark occasionally tells me to harden up, so.

RICHARD PERNO

That’s that thing that politicians are made of?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Indeed, it is. And, look, a great small business, taking advantage of the lowest tax rates since 1940, taking advantage of the instant asset write-off which has been extended to June 30, 2023. There’s been a number of good measures in the Budget for small business. And this is one of them. And, of course, they’re taking a big role in Inland Rail.

MARK COULTON

Michael still has a spoonful of cement in his latte every morning.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Latte! I’ll give you latte.

RICHARD PERNO

And may I say, once again, I give you two thumbs up for telling those People from the Ethical Treatment of Backsides that, you know, they wouldn’t know if their backsides were on fire. Can we hear more of that from you?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well –

RICHARD PERNO

Can you say more of that? Are you human?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, I’ve always been human. And people who know me and meet me, you know, sometimes they even like me. But, you know, it is true – we don’t need to be told by city people who’ve never been outside over the Great Divide, how we should be living our lives in regional Australia. They can go and jump.

RICHARD PERNO

Get stuffed.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, they can.

RICHARD PERNO

You can say that. You can say that on 2DU, if you like. Go on, say it.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Well, they can go and get stuffed quite frankly. But, you know, we’ll live our lives the way we need to live our lives, and we grow the food and fibre. We produce the resources. We produce the, you know, the whole essence of being that keeps Australia going. And they need to realise it instead of just sitting there watching Netflix, you know, getting on their keyboard late at night and writing stupid stuff on Twitter.

RICHARD PERNO

There you go – I didn’t even pay him for that.

MARK COULTON

You know, you’ve got your promo sorted for the next 12 months.

RICHARD PERNO

Two years. It doesn’t matter where I go. Michael McCormack, will you come back and talk like that again?

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Absolutely. Think local, vote Mark Coulton.

RICHARD PERNO

And enjoy RFDS – they’re great.

MICHAEL McCORMACK

Good on you, Richard.

RICHARD PERNO

See you.

MARK COULTON

Do you know that I’m a member of PETA?

RICHARD PERNO

You’re not, are you?

MARK COULTON

Yeah, People for Eating Tasty Animals.

Shane Manning