TRANSCRIPT: INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD SPENCE, 2LF, MONDAY JANUARY 9
Subject: “ISIS Bride” Arrest
E&OE
Starts 8.06am
RICHARD SPENCE
Good morning. Yes, Rick Spence here with you for the Breakfast Crunch on this Monday. It’s six minutes past eight.
A joint operation between Australian Federal Police and New South Wales Police investigators, and the Joint Counter Terrorism Team made an arrest in Young last Thursday of a 31-year-old woman who had allegedly supported her husband’s actions fighting for ISIS in Syria, before she and other so-called “ISIS brides” returned to Australia – many with children. The Federal Government was widely criticised for the decision to allow them into Australia.
Joining me on the phone this morning is the Federal Member for Riverina, Nationals’ Michael McCormack.
Good morning, Michael.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Good morning, Richard.
RICHARD SPENCE
Now, was the decision the correct call, do you think, to allow these brides back into Australia?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, it depends who you ask. Now, law experts say that they need to be back in Australia, they have to be back in Australia because they are Australian citizens. You do get other people who say “well if they are going to go overseas and go to places where, indeed, Islamic State and others are fighting against Australian soldiers, then perhaps they are not welcome back in this country”. If there are going to be measures taken to help them in the future – or indeed, as we’ve seen, to perhaps make sure there is justice done for things that happened some time ago – then perhaps the only place to do that is, in fact, in Australia, where the court system is in place.
It’s a difficult question, it’s a difficult question and I appreciate that the Australian Government, their first role, their first job, is to protect Australian citizens and that comes with great pressure. I appreciate, too, that there has been some concern expressed that the Government has not explained where these Islamic State brides have been repatriated to. I know Sussan Ley, the Deputy Opposition Liberal Leader, has stated that quite categorically and I appreciate where she is coming from. I appreciate there is anxiety in the local community, but I also understand that Young is a very inclusive community.
RICHARD SPENCE
That brings me to my next question: Has the Federal Opposition itself, and the Liberals, been fully and appropriately briefed on the process and was the information shared with the NSW and other state governments?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, I haven’t been. So, I can only speak for myself. Whether, in fact, more briefings were given to people in that particular Shadow Ministry portfolio, or indeed, as you say, other State agencies or politicians, I’m not sure. But I certainly haven’t been given any of those briefings.
I was once the Deputy Chair of the National Security Committee, the National Security Council, and I know that there are many difficult things that come before that particular committee. You know, these are matters of national security. Understand that sometimes they can’t always give that information out to all and sundry. But, as I say, this is a difficult, very, very difficult decision. I have spoken to Margaret Roles, the Hilltops Mayor, and she, like me, knows that Young is a very inclusive community.
I appreciate that there are people of different faiths right throughout regional Australia. Perhaps it wasn’t once the case, but it is now. You only have to look at Wagga Wagga – its largest festival, apart from the annual Gold Cup horse race, is a multicultural festival called Fusion. You know, our local communities have changed. I play in a cricket team where I am the only Australian-born member in that team. These are changing times. We have changing communities. But still in all, the role of Government has not changed and that is; that their first, first role is to protect Australian communities and citizens.
RICHARD SPENCE
And you mentioned our mayor, a conversation with our mayor, Margaret Roles. Now, community leaders across many local government areas, particularly in parts of Western Sydney, expressed great concern about what effect these people might have in their communities. This is before they returned to Australia and now, with that arrest last week in Young, concerns may have been justified to some extent? Yet it appears no-one in Young was aware.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, and you only have to look at major metropolitan newspapers, and I quote from one of them, which said in its editorial:
The very fact that the NSW and Australian Federal Police have since uncovered “newly obtained evidence” suggests that the information held by the government at the time of these assurances was less than complete.
This is important because genuine fears are held by members of the communities in which these women and children now live about just how radicalised they were and might still be.
Yet, at the same time the government provided little, if any, detail on what the history of these people was or on the exact nature of the screenings and protections supposedly undertaken.
Now, I heard on another radio station this morning, somebody who has relatives and, indeed, many of whom have fled or are still in these communities where IS operated and she explained to that radio station the anxiety felt and the fact that many of her relatives and friends are taking more medication and are very concerned about what has taken place, and the fact that there are people throughout Australia who, and, indeed, in regional Australia, who are in fact amongst these people who have been repatriated.
But I don’t want to spread unnecessary fear. You know, everybody is entitled to a fair trial. That is one of the very conditions of the society in which we are founded upon. And it’s very good, the fact that we have a society which has free and democratic trials and I know there are very strict bail conditions around this person who deserves the respect of the court system, and, indeed, the community for the fact that no-one is guilty or otherwise, or guilty until proven otherwise. And, certainly, the right course of action, you know, will be followed and protocols will be adopted and that is the appropriate course of action.
RICHARD SPENCE
And that brings me to my next point. We have to be very careful of the what and…
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Of course.
RICHARD SPENCE
…what we talk about here. The accused faced court on Friday, was granted bail. My understanding was bail was due to a plea from her regarding her children need their mother.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
And you can understand that too.
RICHARD SPENCE
They are suffering PTSD from their time in the refugee camp in Syria.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Yes.
RICHARD SPENCE
Now, do you think that judgement is justified or simply clouded with emotion due to the welfare of the children?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Oh, well look, I’m not going to get into what the court decided or didn’t decide. But I know there are 12 bail conditions, very strict. The accused has been banned from contacting anyone in prison or associated with a terrorist group, barred from viewing or distributing material on things including terrorism, or related propaganda and can not attempt to acquire a firearm. She is due to appear at Young Local Court in March. She has to report daily to Young Police Station, as I understand.
And, you know, the court system, I’m not going to criticise a determination made by the court on bail or anything else. As I said, she is entitled to a fair trial. That will be the course of action now undertaken. I do praise the Police and other agencies for the diligent work that they do in all these sorts of matters. They are very difficult.
Now, the 31-year-old has four children, apparently as I read, two boys, two girls. The boys were born in Australia and the girls were apparently born in Syria. And kids, you know, you can understand. I’m a parent, you know lots of parents no doubt listening, and kids need their mum. And this is a very difficult situation but the community also – as Sussan Ley and others have quite correctly pointed out – they need to know that their community is safe. And so, let’s let the system go. Let’s let this process now go before the courts, as it should, and let’s see what occurs there. And, as I say, everybody is innocent until proven otherwise.
RICHARD SPENCE
And we are all aware how multicultural Australia is. Young has a large proportion of residents who are of the Muslim faith …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Who contribute mightily to the local community.
RICHARD SPENCE
Yeah, and do you think last week’s arrest will have an unsettling effect on the good people of Young who contribute to a positive image of our community?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
I’m just going to say that I hope not. Young is a very, very integrated and inclusive community. As you say, people of different faiths contribute greatly to the community; professionally, personally, through the education system. You know, it’s a wonderful community. It’s got a population of more than 10,000, so it’s a big community, Young. It’s been a very well-established community which has done great things for this nation, you know, cherry picking capital of the nation and so many other things for so many years. And, let’s hope, the community will get through this, as it has always done and let’s hope that it all works out for the best.
RICHARD SPENCE
Given the serious nature of the past of this individual and the others that were repatriated, do you think it’s right or okay for the Government to suppress their identities and/or the residential location of the repatriated?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Again, that’s very difficult. The Government will always argue that it didn’t want to cause unnecessary fear and angst amongst the community. I get that, I understand that. But, at the same time, the Government provided at the time of these repatriations, of these 17 – four women, 13 children – very little, if any, detail on the whole situation on the repatriation process full stop.
People thought that this was just a Western Sydney issue – it’s not. It’s an issue now, right, in regional Australia, as well, as has been shown. But let’s see where this goes. It’s before the courts. Let’s let that process happen without unnecessary fear, without unnecessary accusations and let’s give the woman concerned every right that she is entitled to under Australian law.
Let’s let the process take it’s fair and proper course, and please be assured that Police and other officials, both in Young and in elsewhere right across the nation, do their very best and always have. Australian security, Australian safety, at number one priority.
RICHARD SPENCE
And two very different allegations but it could be likened to when communities get very emotional when they discover that a child sex offender has been located in their community.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, you are right, they’re two very different things. I wouldn’t like to cause unnecessary fear amongst what is a beautiful and wonderful community and that is the community of Young, and we need to, as I say, let this fair and proper process now take place.
People should go about their daily lives as they normally would. Know that the Australian police, both Federal and State level, are very much doing the right thing in every which way to keep their security first and foremost and their safety at paramount importance, and let’s see where this all ends up.
RICHARD SPENCE
And, finally, just as importantly, we mustn’t jump to conclusions that treat others in our community negatively. But instead ….
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Definitely not and definitely not. And, as I say, regional Australia is very inclusive, much more so now than perhaps, than even 10-15 years ago. And that is a good thing because you know, multiculturalism has made and helped make this country what it is today, helped make regional Australia what it is today and we should have respect for all people, even including those who are, perhaps or potentially, facing charges. They are entitled to the respect and they are entitled to their innocence, until, as I said, proven otherwise.
RICHARD SPENCE
Federal Member for Riverina, Nationals’ Michael McCormack. Thank you so much for your time.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Any time at all, Richard, you have a good day.
Ends 8.19am